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Post by AR15 on Jan 27, 2018 20:05:45 GMT -5
I just rewatched The Outsider today and I couldn't help but mentally compare it with The Wedding. Ben says that he was sure John would understand why he eloped because he did the same. John says it was different for them, and he's right, they had known each other their entire lives, while Ben and Cindy (based on The Outsider being spring and Day of Infamy being December) can't have known each other more than six months or so (at most.)
However, the person who I think should be able to relate to Ben the most, is Mary Ellen. In The Wedding, she is due to marry David and the family are concerned that she doesn't know him well enough (even though they've known each other for quite some time.) In the end, she does not marry David, but Curt instead. It has been a little while since I last watched The Wedding, but it can't be more than a month that she's known Curt. She's also younger than Ben is in The Outsider (I think.) You never see how anybody reacts to her decision to marry Curt (it just cuts to them getting married, right after she says she wouldn't want to marry him) but I am sure they would have been against it. In The Outsider, she seems to think Ben's decision to get married was a bad idea and it's disappointing that she wasn't more empathetic, having done something very similar herself.
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Post by JeriJet on Jan 27, 2018 21:10:07 GMT -5
Hi, Adam -- nice to hear from you ~ you always offer interesting threads and postings !
It bothered me that Ben hadn't even introduced his family to Cindy yet -- 'tho I think someone had seen her red convertible ....
Curt and Mary Ellen's quick wedding didn't surprise me much -- considering the personalities of the two !! Both always knew exactly what they wanted, firmly and quickly ... and hang "tradition."
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Post by Brenda on Jan 27, 2018 22:41:46 GMT -5
I think both Ben's and Mary Ellen's personalities play into these storylines somewhat.
Mary Ellen was always very outspoken and somewhat bossy, so it's not surprising that she would criticize Ben's decision to elope with a girl none of the family had even met yet, especially when you consider that Olivia was away and Mary Ellen had taken over the running of the household. It's almost as if she thought it was her responsibility to speak up.
Ben was also somewhat outspoken and bossy and tended to think whatever he did was the right decision and shouldn't be questioned. The original Cindy in "Day of Infamy" was much different from the Cindy he married. She apparently had a reputation. I think she was known as "Sinful Cindy" or something like that. I guess when the writers decided that Ben and Cindy would get married, it might be best to choose a different Cindy, one who would fit in with the Walton family. It was the same convertible but definitely not the same Cindy.
The surprising thing to me about "The Wedding" was that Mary Ellen, who always had her life planned out, suddenly decided to get married, then changed her mind and decided to marry someone else.
One thing that stood out to me in "The Outsider" was that Grandma was the first person in the family to totally accept the marriage. When John asked her about it as he helped wrap the gift, she pointed to Grandpa's picture and said "he would." Grandpa still had an influence on the family even though he was gone.
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Post by sweaver on Oct 27, 2020 8:53:50 GMT -5
It seems to me that Mary Ellen always did the opposite of what she said she wanted to do with her life. Remember the quilting bee? It was a good episode but I didn't care for all the tension. Anyway, remember how mad she was at grandma? She kept saying she wasn't going to ever get married, her career was very important to her. But it sure wasn't too long after she started to go to nursing school that she was in love with David and next thing you know they're gonna be married. I think she did love him too but she didn't have any experience with men. There was G.W and some guy named Don Melman and that's about it as far as boyfriends. When Curt entered the scene she was just drawn to him even though she sure tried to prove otherwise. When he asked her if she wanted to come to work for him she said she wouldn't work for him if he was the last man on earth. Exactly what she said when he told her he was going to marry her!! Btw I liked Curt, I didn't like that whole thing with him not really dying and turned up in florida. Didn't like that storyline at all. I thought they should have kept him around. Just my opinion. Now I'm going to ask you all what you think about a very sensitive subject. Especially for a show like the Walton's!! Is it at all possible that people back then rushed into marriage because of raging hormones? Obviously I have no idea what went on with people back in the day but they sure led me to believe that sex was a big no no until you were married. Remember what Ben said to John that night? I don't remember verbatim but he said something to the effect of wanting to get married before they got carried away and did something stupid. So I figured a big part of the reason for getting married so spur of the moment like that was simply because they wanted to have sex. It makes you wonder how many young couples actually did for the exact same reason. I just wondered if anyone else thought it might be what happened?
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Post by Easton on Oct 27, 2020 9:09:31 GMT -5
I don't think it was as much about raging hormones (think about all the 'unwanted pregnancies' throughout the show) as it is about the fact that people tended to marry younger in those days. It was almost a necessity.
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Post by tommyc on Oct 27, 2020 11:59:57 GMT -5
I often wondered the same thing, sweaver. It really did seem that the main reason for marrying so young was the desire to have sex. Fear of god or parents or the church was a huge deterrence to pre-marital sex. So just marry the first member of the opposite sex that comes along that's willing to get married.
I also have wondered how frequent pre-marital sex was back in the day. As my parents and teachers and church told me growing up, it was rare. Not sure I really believe that.
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Post by goodnight on Oct 27, 2020 13:17:38 GMT -5
It seems to me that Mary Ellen always did the opposite of what she said she wanted to do with her life. Remember the quilting bee? It was a good episode but I didn't care for all the tension. Anyway, remember how mad she was at grandma? She kept saying she wasn't going to ever get married, her career was very important to her. But it sure wasn't too long after she started to go to nursing school that she was in love with David and next thing you know they're gonna be married. I think she did love him too but she didn't have any experience with men. There was G.W and some guy named Don Melman and that's about it as far as boyfriends. When Curt entered the scene she was just drawn to him even though she sure tried to prove otherwise. When he asked her if she wanted to come to work for him she said she wouldn't work for him if he was the last man on earth. Exactly what she said when he told her he was going to marry her!! Btw I liked Curt, I didn't like that whole thing with him not really dying and turned up in florida. Didn't like that storyline at all. I thought they should have kept him around. Just my opinion. Now I'm going to ask you all what you think about a very sensitive subject. Especially for a show like the Walton's!! Is it at all possible that people back then rushed into marriage because of raging hormones? Obviously I have no idea what went on with people back in the day but they sure led me to believe that sex was a big no no until you were married. Remember what Ben said to John that night? I don't remember verbatim but he said something to the effect of wanting to get married before they got carried away and did something stupid. So I figured a big part of the reason for getting married so spur of the moment like that was simply because they wanted to have sex. It makes you wonder how many young couples actually did for the exact same reason. I just wondered if anyone else thought it might be what happened? I didn't like the way she jilted David. I suppose I wasn't that big of a fan of Curt to begin with. Perhaps the writers and producers wanted a younger version of the Zeb and Esther dynamic. But I really don't think it worked. I also didn't like the "not really dead" storyline. To me it seems like it cheapened everything she went through after Day of Infamy.
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Post by pinkbaker07 on Oct 27, 2020 17:44:47 GMT -5
Maybe Mary Ellen knew that if she had known Curt longer than they would not have fought so nuch.
Bug sisters have a way of fussing over our younger siblings as well. I liked Cindy myself.
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Post by carol on Oct 28, 2020 0:37:17 GMT -5
I don't think it was as much about raging hormones (think about all the 'unwanted pregnancies' throughout the show) as it is about the fact that people tended to marry younger in those days. It was almost a necessity. What unwanted pregnancies?
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Post by Easton on Oct 28, 2020 9:25:37 GMT -5
I don't think it was as much about raging hormones (think about all the 'unwanted pregnancies' throughout the show) as it is about the fact that people tended to marry younger in those days. It was almost a necessity. What unwanted pregnancies? That's why I put the words in single quotes. There were a number of them which were not planned, but two come to mind that were not wanted: Cindy's mother and Daisy. Sarah Jane's pregnancy was certainly unwanted by the father and Sarah's mother. And the hormones were brought up a number of times and became part of the story lines between G.W. and Erin, Chad and Erin, Elizabeth and Drew. The story lines for the brothers were more subtle but, given the posts throughout this forum, the audience is often left with the notion that it was more likely than not that they had their own opportunities to make their own babies.
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Post by isumpin on Oct 28, 2020 16:30:28 GMT -5
And there was the non existent one in the pursuit. Its never clear if it really was Pre marital sex for Jim Bob but it was left open. Considering everything it would have been unwanted.
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Post by goodnight on Oct 28, 2020 18:41:11 GMT -5
And there was the non existent one in the pursuit. Its never clear if it really was Pre marital sex for Jim Bob but it was left open. Considering everything it would have been unwanted. Well if he believed he was the (as it turned out, non existant) baby's father, he must have slept with her.
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Post by Easton on Oct 28, 2020 19:21:20 GMT -5
^ If I recall, when he was talking to John, he didn't remember the night. He'd been drinking. He was going only on her word that she was pregnant and accepted responsibility because it was the right thing to do. Personally, I don't think he did.
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Post by carol on Oct 29, 2020 0:44:32 GMT -5
And there was the non existent one in the pursuit. Its never clear if it really was Pre marital sex for Jim Bob but it was left open. Considering everything it would have been unwanted. Well if he believed he was the (as it turned out, non existant) baby's father, he must have slept with her. Jim Bob had been drinking and passed out and woke up in Kathy Seals bed. I think Jim Bob said he was completely dressed when he woke up. It doesn't sound as if anything happened. If it had that could bring up another issue. Kathy Seals could be accused of taking advantage of Jim Bob when he was in no condition to consent to sex. If a woman is too drunk to consent to sex and isn't aware of what is happening it is considered sexual assault. The same should go for a man who is unable to consent.
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Post by goodnight on Oct 29, 2020 10:40:48 GMT -5
^ If I recall, when he was talking to John, he didn't remember the night. He'd been drinking. He was going only on her word that she was pregnant and accepted responsibility because it was the right thing to do. Personally, I don't think he did. Thank you for pointing that out. I had forgotten he told his father that he didn't remember.
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