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Post by AR15 on Nov 27, 2020 16:52:55 GMT -5
I was just watching The Violated and in my opinion, it's probably the best episode for Olivia. The scene when she speaks to the sheriff, the scene when she tries to comfort Darcy and the scene when she defies Sonny while he tries to intimidate her are such amazing scenes. The more I watch The Waltons, the more I find myself thinking of Olivia as one of the best characters because not only does she have great episodes like The Violated, but she undergoes some really interesting character development and grows a lot as a person throughout the course of the show. I would go so far as to say that Olivia is a feminist icon.
I know that Michael Learned started to feel that the character was under-utilised and only there to say "more coffee, John?" but as a viewer, I think that the character is so much more than that. I know that some people might view a house wife who dedicates her life to looking after her family as the very opposite of what a feminist icon would be - be the point of feminism is to empower women to lead their life as they please and throughout The Waltons we see that though Olivia does occasionally get frustrated in her life as a house wife, it is ultimately the life that she wants to lead (as we see in The Prize).
Olivia is also never afraid to do what she wants to do, regardless of what other people might think of her. For example, in The Bicycle other people find it strange that a grown adult wants to ride a bike around the mountain for fun, but Olivia wants to do it anyway, because it makes her happy. In The Celebration she puts on men's work clothes, despite John finding it a little bit weird, because it makes it easier for her to help him and she knows that she can wear whatever she want. In her later appearances, she generally veered towards trousers and shirts, which of course is very common these days, but besides other female characters on the mountain, she's wearing noticeably more masculine clothing and, again, it's never an issue because that's just the way that she wants to dress.
She's inspirational in her personal achievements as well. Of course, being a mother to seven children and having them all turn out so well is pretty remarkable on its own, but that's not all Olivia had achieved throughout the show. Obviously she overcame polio in An Easter Story and was able to walk again through her sheer force of will to protect her child. She also becomes a teacher, starting as a substitute, but generally gaining more and more experience until she became more than just that. She thought outside the box and controversially avoided traditional teaching methods, because she actually considered the children as people with different needs. She was an incredibly talented painter and after the war begins, she explains her desire to preserve everything in painting because the world is changing so rapidly - such a noble intention.
Yes, she is guilty of being a little too judgemental, particularly in the earlier seasons of the show - but nobody is without their flaws and this is something that she dramatically improves upon. By the end, this negative trait is gone. She welcomes all people with open arms, offering them all love and support - just as she offers all members of her family support in whatever they choose to do with their lives.
Also in Season 8, she encourages JD Pickett to start providing childcare to his employees after she'd noticed that he had started to hire more and more women, only for their children to be left in cars during the day while their parents worked. It's great to see her challenging JD and working hard to make sure that women in the workplace have an easier time.
This are just a few examples from the top of my head, but as she is a woman who raised a large family, consistently fought to spread love and compassion, tackled the difficulties facing victims of rape, tried to improve work standards for women and was in favour of women living their lives however they saw fit, I think Olivia really is a feminist icon - and a pretty great one!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2020 16:54:44 GMT -5
When do men get to live their life as they please?
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Post by AR15 on Nov 27, 2020 17:12:56 GMT -5
When do men get to live their life as they please? Sorry if you thought I was suggesting they couldn't, or shouldn't do as they please. The Waltons also does a good job of depicting men and men's issues. I love that John-Boy is the sensitive, creative type and not a typical masculine guy - while also giving us John, who is traditionally masculine and deeply loving/supportive. The show provides excellent role models for both men and women. I just think that the show's writers did a particularly good job of writing Olivia and the tackle various women's issues with her very well and I wanted to write up my appreciation for the way that they did that
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2020 17:27:20 GMT -5
In the Choice, Jason was informed that he was going to have to support a family some day. I never heard Jason stating that he even wanted a family...ever and yet here he is being told what he is going to have to do.
So no, men were not being free to do what they wanted in the show.
Its a shame that it is only women being told over and over again to "do what you want" as if men always could do what they wanted.
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Post by Brenda on Nov 27, 2020 18:14:40 GMT -5
I enjoyed reading your well thought out post AR15 . I wonder if Michael Learned had some input into how her character developed.
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Post by AR15 on Nov 27, 2020 18:29:57 GMT -5
Thanks, Brenda I appreciate that. Ms. Katie Scarlett O'Hara, to counter your point, Jim-Bob never marries or has children and I don't seem to remember anybody judging him about it. I also remember the female Walton children being told they'd make good wives/mothers. It's not a point that disproportionately affects men in the show. Anyway, I didn't make this thread with the intention of starting a debate about men's issues vs. women's issues (and I don't want to derail it to be that), merely to highlight that Olivia was written well as a female character and one who was used to tackle various feminist issues. In my opinion, this was a job will done by the writers and by Michael Learned herself
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2020 18:53:39 GMT -5
I wonder if Michael Learned had some input into how her character developed. I thought she did not and that is why she left.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2020 18:58:15 GMT -5
Thanks, Brenda I appreciate that. Ms. Katie Scarlett O'Hara, to counter your point, Jim-Bob never marries or has children and I don't seem to remember anybody judging him about it. I also remember the female Walton children being told they'd make good wives/mothers. It's not a point that disproportionately affects men in the show. Anyway, I didn't make this thread with the intention of starting a debate about men's issues vs. women's issues (and I don't want to derail it to be that), merely to highlight that Olivia was written well as a female character and one who was used to tackle various feminist issues. In my opinion, this was a job will done by the writers and by Michael Learned herself Nobody judged Livy either. I wasn't trying to make it a debate. I just mentioned that guys get the shaft too. I can't say what Livy did was truly from a feminist slant. To me, her actions were simply living life. Ode to Livy, sure, feminist Icon, not so much. In my Afamily, women had college degrees during the Walton era so, no, Livy's character doesn't strike me as anything forward or modern. For her region then maybe some cosmopolitan.
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Post by patriciaanne on Nov 28, 2020 0:42:01 GMT -5
I do enjoy seeing Olivia's character develop over time. I just think of her as a strong woman and a dedicated wife and mother. I'm probably in the minority but I hate the word "feminist." I do believe that everyone -- be they men or women -- should have the opportunity to live the life they want. I also don't believe you have to hold down certain segments of the population for others to rise. It's not a zero-sum game. So I agree with you about Olivia's character -- but without the "f" word. ☺️
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Post by Easton on Nov 28, 2020 9:29:50 GMT -5
Olivia lived by her religious convictions and her devotion to her husband and familly, but she developed into a stronger, more independent woman throughout the series, doing more of what she wanted to do with her life for her own happiness. In no way did she become a feminist. She wasn't out to change the world or anyone else's. Just her own personal corner of it.
She wanted more out of life than wiping noses, doing laundry, kneading bread, and baking applesauce cake. That's why she curled her hair and bought a bicycle. That's why she learned how to drive. That's why she enjoyed a glass of champaign. That's why she took art classes. That's why she put on jeans and challenged John to just tell her what to do.
No matter how independent she became, she never stopped being a mother, and the closest she came to being feminist was the time she made Jim-Bob wear one of his older sister's outgrown blouses to school.
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Post by AR15 on Nov 28, 2020 9:43:15 GMT -5
Patriciaanne, that's fair. I can see why you have reservations about the word, I have certainly encountered some people who call themselves feminist who believe in putting women above men, or who just hate men. That's not really what I mean by feminism though. when I use the word, I mean it to describe somebody who believes in equal treatment for everyone, regardless of their gender. In many ways, both sides suffer when there is an inequality. I think, generally, we agree, we just prefer to use different language, which, of course, is fine Easton, I'm not trying to say that Olivia was a feminist activist, I just mean that she could be seen as a feminist icon in the sense that she upholds various views which are very much in line with what I would consider feminist. I don't know whether or not the character herself would have described herself as a feminist, but I think it's undeniable that her efforts to get justice for a woman who was raped and her actions to improve working conditions for women at the defence plant are both examples of pro-feminist behaviour.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2020 10:13:56 GMT -5
That's not really what I mean by feminism though. when I use the word, I mean it to describe somebody who believes in equal treatment for everyone, regardless of their gender. In many ways, both sides suffer when there is an inequality. That is part of the problem with a loaded word such as feminism. Feminism can mean so many things to different people. I think its really becoming a hateful word for a lot of women, especially those women who like men. but I think it's undeniable that her efforts to get justice for a woman who was raped and her actions to improve working conditions for women at the defence plant are both examples of pro-feminist behaviour. So what would you call it if a man was trying to accomplish justice for a woman (or man) who was raped or getting better working conditions for people? It's like there is a double standard and we want to label it special if a woman does it. No, it should not be special when a woman does something. I do not think most have history accurate as to what women could or could not do legally vs what was considered social norms. Women were free to do a lot of things all along, but chose not to. Yes, there we things that women could not legally do that have changed, but nothing Livy did was against the law.
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Post by Easton on Nov 28, 2020 10:29:12 GMT -5
Easton, I'm not trying to say that Olivia was a feminist activist, I just mean that she could be seen as a feminist icon in the sense that she upholds various views which are very much in line with what I would consider feminist. I don't know whether or not the character herself would have described herself as a feminist, but I think it's undeniable that her efforts to get justice for a woman who was raped and her actions to improve working conditions for women at the defence plant are both examples of pro-feminist behaviour. And all I'm saying is that a person doesn't have to be a feminist activist or icon to stand up for justice and equal rights. As John often told her, "What is the Christian thing to do?"
I know what you're trying to say, but Olivia's actions are not feminist in any way, at least by what I understand feminists to be. Even the suffragettes were not feminists. Political activists, yes, but not feminists. I certainly wouldn't consider Mrs. Pankhurst a feminist despite her vehement activism for equal rights for women.
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Post by AR15 on Nov 28, 2020 11:11:00 GMT -5
Ms. Katie Scarlett O'Hara, if a man did those same things, I would still consider them feminist actions, yes. I would also consider it a feminist action if a man were to fight against the social pressures of men to do certain things and act in certain ways. A feminist act, in my mind, is one which is taken in order to challenges negative expectations with regard to gender. It can be applied to a man or a woman and I don't believe in treating people differently because of their gender. While it is good that people can legally do certain things, society and cultural pressures play a huge part and it's important that they are tackled too - I'm not just talking about gender issues there. Many people may not be living life in the way that is most comfortable for them, simply because others would judge them for it. Easton, I see feminism as something very subjective. One person can say something is a feminist action, another person can say that that same action was not a feminist action. The same is true for any belief set - for a non-Waltons example, some people say that the movie Groundhog Day reflects good Christian morals. However, some people also say that the same movie reflects good Buddhist morals. I don't know what the writers intended, but I don't see either interpretation as being less valid. For some people, that movie embodies Christianity. For others, it embodies Buddhism. Good fiction prompts different interpretations from different people and that's fine. For the record, I would describe myself as a feminist. All that means is that I believe in equal and fair treatment for everybody, regardless of gender. I know that the majority of people in my life would also describe themselves as feminists, including many 'women who like men'. Obviously there are a people I know who wouldn't call themselves feminists too, but they are probably the minority. Feminism, like all belief sets, is comprised of many different people who believe many different things. There are many feminists I've encountered who I agree with wholeheartedly, there are others who I couldn't disagree with more. In the very same way, there are so many people who call themselves Christians, many of whom will disagree with each other, the same goes for atheists, Jews, Democrats, Republicans, Communists and any other set of beliefs. I didn't mean to spark any controversy by describing Olivia as a 'feminist icon'. To me, it's not a loaded word and I didn't realise that it was for a lot of people (I don't generally get involved in debates like this very often) - so let me just assure everyone that when I describe Olivia in that way, I'm just saying that she does a good job of fighting for gender equality - both through her direct actions within the show and as the role model that she is as a popular fictional character. Obviously, you don't all have to agree with me and it's interesting to hear your perspective on what the word feminism means to you both. You're view of Olivia actions not reflecting feminism in any way is just as valid as mine. I just wanted to make my perspective on it all absolutely clear
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2020 11:21:39 GMT -5
I didn't mean to spark any controversy by describing Olivia as a 'feminist icon'. To me, it's not a loaded word and I didn't realise that it was for a lot of people (I don't generally get involved in debates like this very often) Controversy is a good thing. I would not have called this a debate. I thought it was a good conversation. I am glad you brought it up. Don't be shy to do it again. I think Brenda has a rule that once someone starts a thread, it can go any directions (within reason of course) that the thread goes. Meaning, you cannot control a thread.
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